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Will children be given LIG ?

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Tormod Hvidsten Gjedrem

Here inn Norway there are more benefits that in much of the "other" world. Because of oil resources and a long lasting social-democratic government. Amongst these benefits there is a monthly (governmental) payment to parents who choose to stay home, from work, with their child. My questions is though simple . Will children be given LIG or only adults ? And also will there be a difference in what one gives of money to a 2 year old or to a 50 year old ? Thank you.

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Yogan Wayra Zadronzny Barrientos

Im not an admin, but I have been following the development of LIG for some time. My understanding is that the amount of LIG given to the populous of a country (underline) will be in part determined by the profits generated from the country's (underline) resources. So in theory, some resource rich countries will turn out a greater profit that other countries. So this, as Im sure you could imagine, would play a part in determining how much LIG that citizens will receive, and perhaps whether LIG may be restricted to certain age groups. This is all speculation of course, but it makes sense to me.

Personally, I see the benefits of giving an LIG reserved especially for children (or the non-working class). To give a few reasons for this view: children with abusive parents could theoretically opt out of their families, and move out to a suitable place with suitable people. For a more concrete example, one can look at child brides, which still happen today in India. The primary reason why parents would marry off their kids at such a young age, is a financial one. If LIG were provided, children could be more independent, and perhaps the state can recognize children's rights. In United States at least they are regarded as dependents of the parents, which make sense because the children depend on the parents, to the point, for money. So what I am beginning to see is that LIG will not only change our economy, but also out social, moral, spiritual values, familial relations, and relation between the government and the people. Just to share, I always wanted government to be as caring as the most caring person. For me, LIG is a step in that direction, and may finally realize that vision.

Now that I laid some basic groundwork, to answer your questions. As a reminder, in democratic nations at least, the people can vote and decide whatever policy they wish their government to adopt. In United States, for example, even though we have a represented democracy (politicians) the people can choose to bypass their politicians and vote directly on an issue, but they require a large majority, around 3/4 of the votes (its written in the US constitution). This might have happened once before, I forgot, but I do remember reading that when we studied the Constitution in my Civics class. Whatever the case may be, when 3/4 of the population of whatever country, state, or city (or even household) want to enact same law, rule, or adopt some proposition, there really isn't much that can stop them but themselves, even by brute force alone. Fortunately we aim to be more civilized, and so avoid violence where possible, so we call that voting! haha. So if LIG were adopted in Norway or in South Africa, they may differ in some respects, because it really depends on how the voters accept that proposition, called LIG. I believe that it is the Equal Life Foundation that has created the LIG proposal. I don't wish to be nitpicky, however I am forced to be that because of how you phrased your question and what it implies about your current understanding about LIG. So again, LIG is a proposal, and it has been worked by real people who are coming at an understanding of what works and what doesn't work, and the real practical considerations that come into play when working with real countries that have unique situations. Because this is the case, LIG can change, and what ELF's current stance on LIG can change, and ELF has already recognized, I believe, that each country will have to implement LIG in the format that best fits that country.

My view on whether LIG should or should not, or will or will not be different depended on the age, developmental stage, physical capability/handicap of a person, is that it will probably include these factors and many more factors such as what are the things that is required by people, in their various circumstances, and whether the LIG produced from the country's natural resources, is enough to cover those needs. If its not, then some adjustments will need to be made. If it is enough, well its enough, so I don't have to say much else, right? I wrote a very large sentence with many clauses, so to summarize myself and repeat myself, LIG's goal, Im fairly sure though don't take me as the authority figure, is to meet people's needs. This might or might not have been discussed yet, about LIG, but a practical approach of determining needs, is to make a list that prioritizes the needs from the most life essential (healthy food and clean water) to the least essential (entertainment) (FYI I place entertainment because you can find entertainment for FREE easily). But it seems best too if the citizens of a country decide what are their most basic needs and have LIG be sent to meet that goal. In my opinion, humans needs will be similar because we are biologically similar. I mean, they say that the differences between "races" is less than a percentage point of the total genetic coding. That is why I suggest we use some of the body of knowledge within the science and medical fields, and ask what the experts of those fields what they would recommend the LIG money be used for first due to our physical makeup. I would say that this could include things that provide stress-relief, since stress also affects our health in large quantities. So in terms of children, children may require different things due to the fact that they are so quickly developing, and so they could require specialized equipment or support. I have heard often how the children of wealthier families receive many kinds of special support, and that this helps in their development of both their minds and body. And because childhood is such a sensitive time, meaning, what happens in your childhood could determine the rest of your life, it certainly pertinent to provide support. There will most likely be a balance between the LIG given to children and adults, which would be too presumptuous of me to claim to know the details of that.

I sincerely hope this clears up some of your question or curiosity. As I stated earlier I have been following the development LIG, but I am certainly fallible. So let me know of any mistakes or shortcomings in my answer, and will do my best to review that feedback and make necessary adjustments both in my understanding and explanation of the subject.

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Tormod Hvidsten Gjedrem

Thank you: Yogan Wayra Zadronzny Barrientos. That answers my question perfectly. Especially the way you prove that to give children that are suffering from abuse, the right and possibility, to move out and lave the abusers is very clear to me, that we need to make sure that LIG is not corrupted into only serving only the adults. It is vital and a part of the fundament and should be one of its principles that it also is given to the children. It should possibly be stated more clearly with this purpose in a later addition, that it is also directed to give to children. How it is very essential that it is equally, by region or country, given to children, for themselves to govern in common sense with other family members or other types of counseling, like a service provided to tell people hints or tips on what to do with savings or what to do if one experiences abuses of some kind, etc. A web page with common sense solutions to difficulties and problems. That we could possibly create already today. But back to the point, thank you, it is clear to me that everyone means everyone, and it should not exclude children.

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Leila Zamora Moreno

Yes, it would be ideal for children to receive a LIG - which in the developmental years of the child would happen under guardianship of the parents, and to then -- at an age deemed appropriate by the community/political unit in question – the child would receive full responsibility and accessibility to his or her LIG, and parents would be excluded from interference.

So firstly, in the initial stages it would depend on the capacity of the economy on whether or not it is fundable to include children to be recipients of a LIG from the get-go, or whether this will be a goal to be worked towards. And then secondly, it will be up to local considerations/culture as to when a child would have full accessibility and responsibility for its own LIG. It can even be a possibility that the age at which the child becomes the direct recipient, is to be determined by the parents on an individual basis, rather than having a uniform age in place.

So in terms of the topic of children being LIG recipients, once it has been concluded that it can be a reality : there is a lot of space for input and customization from the community/culture in terms of the guidelines/rules or supervisions to be included within this aspect of LIG.

Also see http://economistjourneytolife.blogspot.com/2014/01/day-259-living-income-guaranteed-and.html where this point has been addressed.

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Yogan Wayra Zadronzny Barrientos

I concur, great post Leila! and thanks for the link!

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Marlen Vargas Del Razo

Good for opening up this point and the conversation about it here.

To begin with, children will be given money through providing it to their parents up to a certain age, depending on each country's consideration. This is already in practice as Tormod was saying in some European countries, and the idea of this is so that the child’s basic living necessities are covered and not be dependent on the parent’s living income or wage. Within this, it also means that parents will be more ‘relieved’ from the usual pressure that having to fend for their children provokes. This stress/pressure that exists based on not having enough money to feed and tend to children’s basic necessities causes families to be disrupted and/or have either a mother or a father that doesn’t want to ‘take responsibility for the child/children’ because it involves quite a lot of money to maintain them. This is one of the reasons why parents end up having emotional distress that is then exerted either toward the children as a form of abuse and/or between the parents, which is one of the factors that influence divorces/ anger/ frustration/ depression in parents: not having money and so creating further desperate experiences based on not being able to fend for themselves/their family in a sufficient manner.

So, this is one perspective to consider in relation to your response, Yogan, to see beyond the perception that with getting a LIG kids would be able to get away from their abusive parents, because the purpose of providing a Living Income is not for children to 'escape their parents,' but to rather prevent the causes that create any form of parental abuse, which as I’ve explained above is linked to – most of the times – lack of money and the emotional disturbance this creates.
This implies that with providing a Living Income, people will be supported to develop effective parenting skills and have the time for it, since the requirement to have a job to make money will no longer be their prime and sole point of focus and necessity. This thus will open up a space for parents to rather dedicate themselves to effectively support their children instead of merely dedicating themselves to work to ensure the basic needs that children require.

In this, also in relation to what Tormod mentioned, providing a Living Income implies providing the essential support that will enable us to have our physical necessities satisfied. But, it is also to consider that giving the money in itself won’t solve the origin of the problems such as parental abuse. This will require parental counseling support as he's mentioned, providing proper education for parents as well as a supportive education system, so that families can become a proper foundation for children’s development and so also ensure that money is then used as a means to support the process of taking responsibility for one’s well-being as well as for the purposes of the inherent familiar stability that is necessary for a healthy upbringing at home and in schools. It is good that this point emerged so that we can also come to realize that there are problems that stem from the lack of money – such as parents becoming abusive toward children. However in terms of solving the problem: we will require more than just ‘giving money’ but also integrating proper education to parents and for children at school, such as learning how to most effectively manage their money, using money for self-support and how to understand that taking money also implies self-responsibility.

The ideal plan would be that along with the implementation of a Living Income model, money is also destined to be part of educational programs for parents and of course with the aid of the overall education system, so that it can be a supportive platform for parents, for children to best make use of money as their personal finances and how to best make use of it.

So, see that the point is not for children to stop being dependent on parents per se, but to actually alleviate parents from the current pressure they have when having to take care of children while not earning sufficient money to do so.

And definitely, everyone will be supportive according to their place in society – meaning as a child, as a parent, as a worker, or as an unemployed, or handicapped individual: money as a living income will be a surety to guarantee one’s living right.

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Tormod Hvidsten Gjedrem

Thanks for following up here on this important topic.

This is all related to how to advice, not only children, but also people that for the first time are given a LIG, and how we can care for each other and not waste our money and avoid abuse.
Today we see that "The greens " particularly in UK makes one of their very most important goals and part of party program, to imply a basic income, to every citizen. No, I do not know if it means also children. That is to be investigated.

It strikes me that people that are poor are more easy staying poor and being taken advantage of when it comes to consume and marketing and literally survival. Now, to reach out to them would also be preferable, even though it would probably take a long time to reach all in their times. I reckon that you all reading this, will spot my, urge to do something and to act, within this days/weeks of tipping point, where we all are preventing consequences.

Is it too soon to start dwelling over what sort of programs we could develop to serve the future money holders of the word? Is it too soon to provide advice to the student of .. Boston (?) to avoid that he or she ends up with huge loans/troubles ? Would it be like another branch of ELF to provide advice, not only to the single share holder but also to businesses who can feel squeezed between environmental worries and its shareholders or bank etc... I mean, do people know that teaching from Henry Ford that he paid his workers a big salary - so they could by themselves a car ? 1/3 of all graduates from US High schools never reads another book in their lives, studies show.. Will they be able to be "caught" by a web page of common sense teachings?

To me I see that the days we are living in is giving more and more people, open eyes to what goes on within banking and then the federal reserve bank. And I see that we should prevent more Arab - springs and brainless fights with authorities that would only get us hurt or jailed.

Many banks have these - suggestions available counseling available for people to get tips and advices on their way, or with their money or lack of money. Should we create a page or a service to promote healthy lifestyles and common sense - healthy savings ? Am I just a early bird ?
Maybe I am writing outside the subject here, and we should rather spend our time investigating solutions like Tesla - inventions - forever free energies or ... what sort of renewable energy we could have in the future. I understand that there is a urge, but not a stress to find cooperation partners, or associates, to cooperate with the LIG and ELF. Is this true ?

Finding cooperative partners is a cool process. Like within psychiatry, it would be cool to cooperate with institutions and foundations. Recovery innovations is one of the driving forces behind the new recovery thinking within psychiatry. Or the Fountain house foundation.
Maybe it is better to wait and see... and listen to the guide or practical and physical common sense. I realize that I am of the "track" here according to children and LIG, but I think that you all 3 before me here, Yogan, Leila and Marlen (thanks guys ) how you pointed it nicely out in relations to culture, nations and what is really do - able and realistic, and practical.

Thank you.

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Tormod Hvidsten Gjedrem

I am not quite done with this topic and I want to reconcile with myself on this topic.

Saying that in some cultures or in some areas children are better off having a income , is accepting abuse. Because if children in Brazil or in Nigeria of South Africa could better tend their own money compared to children in Sweden, Belgia or in Finland is simply wrong and it is not fair either.
Let's have a Example. "Tina" is 13. Tina lives with her family in Nigeria. She is being sexually abused by her uncle and is having hard time with trying to tell anyone or to break the cycle of abuse. If Tina is given money, she would still not know where to escape to or where to hide or what sort of housing she could find or expect if she would escape. To purchase a house she would need a loan inn a bank and Tina have never been in contact with banking.

From this term it is clear that Tina would need new systems in total to be able to escape. The system that we see in Nigeria today is totally corrupt and filed with abuse. Tina would not have good odds with trying to escape from her abusers, even if LIG where implied today.

What I am trying to say is that developing countries like Nigeria would have to establish a lot of new programs and founding's to these programs to make sure that, Tina had a safe spot to escape to if she would choose to break free. It should go without saying that programs is needed. Even though we give LIG or BIG we still need the supporting programs. This must be understood. Now maybe I am only being paranoid, here, maybe Tina would have this safe spot to escape to if she would escape with or without a money option like LIG - today. Maybe Nigeria have good childcare - i dont honestly know. And I see the importance in investigating this closer and learning such a awareness.
I guess the real question here is : How to trust the parents with letting them govern the money of a child ? And the solution is very clear and bright : programs and education, facilities. With founding's. And there is founding's for this. I don't see that money should be a problem as long as we know that money is being printed out in the air, 99 % of it sourcing from the federal reserve in USA.

So the unpopular suggestion of demanding berocratic programs. It is very much needed and the question is perhaps what comes first, LIG or the program and it is vital that people understand that we need both , LIG and the bureaucratic government programs.

Thank you.

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Marlen Vargas Del Razo

Yes Tormod, agreed. It is definitely required to understand that money in itself is the first point of support - but, these programs of support for parents are required as well as regulation to ensure that such money granted for children to the parents is genuinely used for living needs and not other purposes. I fully agree that at this stage there is much abuse - specifically also on the third world - where there is no culture at all of being granted support, which means: when living in poverty, it is quite difficult to all of a sudden use money wisely after you haven't had access to it. So yes, I would say that along with the provision of a Living Income comes a collective agreement to support ourselves to become better parents, to have better education systems, to learn how to properly utilize our money, how to plan our lives, expanding our awareness of how to best utilize our time, etc. which at the same time will prevent all forms of abuse.

So 'can we trust abusive parents' with children's money? I would say that the real point here is instead of seeing parents as the problem, understanding how it is that we become 'bad parents' and how it is that we then believe that the solution is in giving the children freedom from their parents, without first ensuring that the cause of the problem - such as parents being abusive toward children is understood.

Within this it is also clear that there will be a transitional phase as with any form of change. This comes within the realization that when we create a point of benefit that is available for everyone, then, it will take time to learn how to use that support and so seeing the effects of how our own experience changes now that we can have access to such support. For example: in being in a third world country, being a parent that is usually stressed out and having to work all the time, then suddenly realizing that you don't require to work as much and you can actually provide support for your children can initially create an uncertainty of how to best utilize this money. This is where these supportive programs to suggest to people how to best utilize their money, how to administrate it, which options are available etc. can be a supportive point to consider as well. In this then, we expand our current limitations where we believe that 'people cannot change' for example, and believing that 'abusive parents will always be abusive' without realizing how such perceived 'abuse' is also a consequential outflow of the same poverty, the same marginalized experience of living in a third world and having no money to eat and live in dignity, or patterns of abuse that have been transmitted from generation to generation.

So, when looking at the myriad of current consequential outflows in our societies, it is definitely so that money will grant the necessary access for us to have that first starting point of support so that parents can also reconsider their relationship to money and how that 'lack' affects their relationship to their children for example, and so along with getting the money,as part of the social-responsibilities that come with getting money as support could be to attend these meetings or educational programs for parents so that our decision to support each others is not only done at a financial level, but also at a social level when it comes to providing support for parents, for addicts, for people that have had extreme conditions of surviving in the system with the least and so having developed a 'rougher' type of personality in order to cope with this 'dog eat dog' mentality. So this is the 'rougher' type of mind that then becomes an experience that can be translated either on becoming a parent that is not considerate toward children, an addict, a burglar, etc. any other point that is also a consequence of us as human beings not having supported us from the very beginning of time.

This is how then we can also learn how to see a problem, understand it and become aware of the solutions at a more holistic manner - meaning, we can then decide to become individuals that aim at preventing the problems and create ways to deal with the current consequences, which is what we mostly in our lifetimes will have to face as well, the consequential outflow of having disregarded the necessity to guarantee the right to life to each other.

Here's a blog I wrote http://livingincomeforall.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/parents-need-a-living-income-now/ placing also how children are walking consequences of parents for example having to work two or more jobs to make ends meet, and how for example early drug intake in children is also related to living in this lack of parental support at the same time. This is to then also consider other dimensions within the parental-children relationship and of course, it will be up to each country to decide how to best implement supportive counseling programs - however it is definitely suggested that this kind of support becomes an integral part along with the consideration of providing a Living Income.

If you see other aspects to take into consideration, share them here as well as the solutions you see could be effective too. Thanks

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